Why Figma CEO Dylan Field is optimistic about AI and the future of design

Photo by Rick Kern / Getty Images for Vox Media

The person of plan toolmaker Figma connected beingness aft the failed Adobe woody and what comes adjacent successful a unrecorded interrogation from SXSW.

We’ve got a amusive Decoder today. I talked to Figma CEO Dylan Field successful beforehand of a unrecorded assemblage astatine South by Southwest successful Austin, Texas, and we got into it: we talked astir everything from design, to bundle distribution, to the aboriginal of the web, and of course, AI.

Figma is simply a fascinating company; the Figma plan instrumentality is utilized by designers astatine fundamentally each institution you tin deliberation of. And importantly, it runs connected the web — it’s truly casual to stock Figma designs with different radical and enactment connected them together. That sounds evident now, but it was a gyration successful plan erstwhile Figma launched successful 2016, and it rapidly grew into a superior subordinate successful the originative bundle world.

So overmuch truthful that Adobe tried to buy it retired successful 2022 for $20 billion, a woody that lone conscionable recently fell through due to the fact that of regulatory concerns.

So Dylan and I talked a batch astir wherever Figma is present arsenic an autarkic company. About 4 percent of Figma’s employees took a buyout connection aft the woody fell through, truthful of course, we talked astir however Figma is structured, wherever it’s going, and however Dylan’s decision-making has changed since the last clip helium was connected the amusement successful 2022.

Beyond Adobe, the 2 large topics I wanted to speech to Dylan astir were AI and the web. Like each large bundle company, Figma is investing heavy successful AI. But it’s besides successful the unsocial presumption of serving the originative assemblage — a assemblage that has beardown opinions connected whether caller generative bundle tools are taking jobs portion besides creating a deluge of low-quality work.

You’ll perceive Dylan marque the bull lawsuit for generative AI. He argues that much empowering bundle should summation the request for quality creativity and fto much radical in, and fto those radical enactment amended and faster. He’s optimistic that adjacent successful a satellite of C-plus AI-generated content, some creators and consumers volition propulsion large worldly to the top.

This taxable dovetailed nicely with different we dug into: the authorities of the web. Even though the web is nether a batch of unit close present owed to AI and the dominance of large platforms, Dylan is inactive a believer successful its potential. After all, Figma is simply a web app, and Dylan and I discussed however he’s looking astatine the scenery of bundle organisation successful 2024, particularly arsenic European regularisation similar the Digital Markets Act has taken purpose astatine app stores and mobile browser restrictions to effort to make a much level playing tract for developers.

We besides talked astir plan trends, which is ever a bully clip — get acceptable for thing called solarpunk to instrumentality hold.

Okay, Figma CEO Dylan Field. Here we go.

This transcript has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity.

Dylan Field, you are the co-founder and CEO of Figma. Welcome to Decoder. Welcome to South by Southwest.

Thank you.

I americium precise excited to speech to you. Figma is astatine the halfway of many, many, galore large stories successful tech close now, from plan to gathering connected the web to antitrust law. You sanction it, that’s you. So I conscionable privation to commencement with a precise large question: where’s your absorption these days?

I deliberation that the mode a batch of radical deliberation astir Figma is arsenic a plan tool. And evidently that is wherever we started and wherever we proceed to enactment a batch of enactment into making that better. But however we deliberation astir Figma has truly evolved from conscionable however bash we marque the champion instrumentality for bundle plan to truly supporting the full process of however you physique software. Everything from starting with an thought oregon brainstorming oregon figuring retired wherever your squad is at, getting each the mode to codification and production.

And we person 3 products that we offer: FigJam for whiteboarding and brainstorming, Figma Design for bundle design, and present we conscionable launched successful [general availability] astir a period ago, Dev Mode, which helps developers construe those designs into code. And we, I think, person truthful overmuch much accidental to fig retired however bash we really marque it truthful that you person the astir businesslike but besides champion mode to research and bring much radical into the process, going each the mode from thought each the mode to app oregon website oregon reality.

So that past crook is truly interesting, that we’re going to look astatine a plan we made collaboratively and really crook that into accumulation code. The past clip you were connected Decoder, you were astatine the opening stages of reasoning astir that, present you’ve really shipped it. In the meantime, determination person been what I mightiness telephone immoderate distractions. How person you managed to enactment focused connected shipping ideas that big?

Yeah, truthful I deliberation what you’re referencing arsenic a distraction is — which I deliberation really successful immoderate ways created focus, but we tin speech astir that — was we tried to merge with Adobe, and assorted satellite governments didn’t spot the aforesaid mode we did. And truthful we’re backmost to being an autarkic institution again. I conjecture we ne'er stopped being independent.

While it was surely distracting to person our exec squad spending a batch of clip going backmost and distant to Europe and London and speech with regulators, I deliberation we besides tried to marque definite that the squad was arsenic isolated from that arsenic possible. And we knew what our roadworthy representation was, we knew what our goals were, and we tried to conscionable person implicit clarity astir that. And what ended up happening was, arsenic a result, I deliberation we really picked up our gait during this woody reappraisal period. Now we’re picking it up adjacent more, and I deliberation we’ve been accelerating done each that, but it’s been absorbing and decidedly we’ve had to propulsion hard to marque that happen.

Yeah. Let’s speech astir Adobe conscionable for a fewer minutes. It’s been respective months. The woody was called disconnected successful December. We’re evidently sitting present successful March. Time has passed. I had the general counsel of Adobe connected Decoder a fewer months ago, it was similar the week the woody was called off. He wanted to speech astir AI and copyright law, and I was like, “No, let’s debar that weaponry and speech astir this woody being called off.” And helium said, “Look, we understood that the regulators are not going to fto america spell done and we made a decision.” That’s his broadside of it. Talk astir that infinitesimal for you erstwhile you knew that it wasn’t going to spell forward.

There’s benignant of similar the Twitter meme of, “We’re truthful back, it’s truthful over,” and you benignant of had those cycles done the woody process. And possibly the wide inclination was toward, arsenic you saw, much reasoning from the regulators implicit time, it was much wide that this had a little probability. But adjacent toward the last months, determination were these moments of, “Oh, this is going to spell through,” and moments of, “Fuck, what are we doing?” And evidently astatine the end, there’s a communal knowing of, “This determination has been made for america and let’s telephone it.”

But look, you’re lone allowed to person truthful overmuch coordination / collaboration and learning from the different sides successful these woody processes legally, and you cognize each astir that. But for me, I really truly enjoyed my clip that I got with the Adobe team, particularly [Adobe CEO] Shantanu Narayen. He’s, I think, beauteous legendary and that was astir apt 1 of the things I was astir bummed astir is not having him arsenic a mentor, but present it’s afloat steam ahead. Let’s spell fig this retired and beryllium the champion autarkic institution we perchance can.

So the mentation of the lawsuit from the Europeans was that Figma should beryllium a meaningful rival to Adobe. It is not yet, but it volition turn into that. [Adobe enforcement VP] Dana Rao, I deliberation helium was skeptical of this claim. He’s like, “I person 800 people, we’re Adobe.” You person to marque Photoshop. That’ll beryllium precise hard for you. Do you deliberation Figma tin present go a meaningful rival to Adobe?

I mean that’s conscionable not wherever we’re headed close now. Like I said, we’re truly focused connected the bundle process. How bash we marque it truthful that radical spell from thought each the mode to app oregon website? There’s a definite magnitude of building, immoderate magnitude of buying, immoderate magnitude of concern that’s going to spell into that. We’ve got to fig retired precisely however that each volition work.

But yeah, it’s a precise antithetic marketplace and precise antithetic process than Adobe’s in. I deliberation it’s absorbing if you deliberation astir the aboriginal that mode of what’s possible. Regulators were benignant of telling america you tin bash anything, anything’s possible. And it’s similar you benignant of privation to judge that due to the fact that I truly deliberation our squad is great, but astatine the aforesaid clip it’s like, “Well, here’s our priorities, here’s our roadworthy map, here’s our focus. It’s each documented.” And it’s a weird speech to effort to disprove that you tin bash anything. But ultimately, that’s benignant of the mode that regulators think, and it’s flattering, I guess, successful immoderate ways.

I deliberation telling a charming European bureaucrat that I can’t really bash thing indispensable beryllium precise difficult.

Well, the world is it’s each conscionable tradeoffs, right?

How overmuch time? What bash you deliberation the accidental is? We person these precise adjacent opportunities that we’re going aft due to the fact that a 3rd of our users, for example, are developers and we cognize from our probe that, pre-Dev Mode, we were not doing the champion we could for that audience. And adjacent now, we cognize that there’s truthful overmuch accidental up to marque the acquisition of being a developer successful Figma better. That is simply a near-term accidental that there’s truthful overmuch we tin bash rapidly on. We effort to spell physique Photoshop, that’s going to instrumentality a very, precise agelong time. What precisely is the income oregon revenue? You person to enactment done that.

Let’s speech astir that opportunity. I privation to speech astir what you spot ahead, but fto maine inquire what I deliberation of arsenic the Decoder questions truthful we can... This is the brand. All of you’re expected to cheer erstwhile I accidental the Decoder questions. [Cheers]. There we go. I consciousness precise arrogant that I branded immoderate LinkedIn bait. Thank you for indulging me. About 4 percent of your folks took a buyout aft the woody fell through, right? They were benignant of waiting connected this to beryllium the large moment. It didn’t happen. How galore radical is Figma now?

We’re astir 1,400, which I deliberation is really the aforesaid size arsenic you guys. What you’re referring to I deliberation from the buyout term, we had this programme we ran, we called it Detach, which is simply a Figma pun. We said, “Okay, look, if you’ve been astatine Figma for a agelong time, you’re tired. Or possibly you joined and you thought you were joining Adobe, but surprise, you’re astatine a hard-charging startup. If you privation to get disconnected the train, that’s okay. Here’s 3 months of wage and you’re inactive successful bully lasting with the company. We’re inactive friends. If you privation to reapply successful six months, that’s fine.” And about, similar you said, 4 percent oregon truthful of radical took it, and I deliberation it’s truly positive. Now everyone that’s present is committed and we person a batch to do, truthful that’s benignant of the momentum I wanted.

How are you structured now? How’s Figma structured?

We person engineering led by our CTO Kris [Rasmussen]. It’s the largest portion of our organization. Product led by our main merchandise officer, Yuhki [Yamashita], merchandise plan research. We person go-to-market, our CMO Sheila [Joglekar Vashee] who precocious joined, is leading, which includes not conscionable selling but besides each things support. And we effort to truly link the lawsuit acquisition there. Sales, which has been ramping up rather a bit. Our CRO, Shaunt [Voskanian], is moving that org. We besides person biz ops, which includes concern and accounting arsenic good arsenic assorted concern functions, led by our CFO Praveer [Melwani]. And we besides person people, which is led by our main radical serviceman Nadia [Singer].

Now, this each reports to you?

This each reports to me, and it’s precise functional.

And arsenic radical person travel and go, radical person detached, person you had to alteration that operation astatine all?

No, there’s nary changes.

And past arsenic you deliberation astir increasing and expanding, I cognize you took a billion-dollar breakup interest from Adobe, which is the top breakup of each time. More radical should speech currency erstwhile relationships end. I would’ve really mislaid wealth connected that deal, I think, implicit time. But you person a cardinal dollars from Adobe. I deliberation you told my workfellow Alex Heath you mightiness get immoderate things with that money, bash you deliberation you’d person to restructure arsenic you get oregon you deliberation you could plug close in?

I deliberation it depends connected what you get and however that goes. But yeah, aft evidently fees, taxes, we decidedly are excited to prosecute strategical acquisitions. I deliberation that there’s a batch we could bash there, but besides conscionable a batch we tin bash successful partnerships, too, and a batch we tin build. And truthful I’m excited to support Figma arsenic an businesslike business. We’re precise businesslike close present and I’m arrogant of that, but besides marque it truthful that arsenic we proceed to grow, we’re capable to bring successful caller perspectives to the company.

You could get things — determination are indie versions of Photoshop successful the world. There are different originative tools oregon markets wherever Adobe is winning oregon losing. Would you get worldly that puts you successful nonstop contention with Adobe?

I mean, it’s not what we’re looking astatine close now. I tin accidental that.

I cognize a batch of designers who privation the indie Death Star. I don’t privation to sanction the apps. So it’s similar Pixelmator, each these indie apps that radical usage that aren’t Creative Cloud, you would ne'er rotation those up?

I mean, look, “never” is simply a agelong time, but I tin accidental that those are not conversations we’re having close now.

Makes sense. Last Decoder question, however bash you marque decisions? You’ve travel a agelong way. When you started arsenic a CEO, you were beauteous unfastened that you were learning connected the occupation however to bash this. So you’ve travel a agelong way, you’ve fended disconnected oregon not fended disconnected immoderate charming European bureaucrats. How bash you marque decisions now? How person you evolved?

I deliberation that each determination is different, and I similar to deliberation of myself not arsenic idiosyncratic who conscionable sticks to 1 framework, but alternatively that I person a benignant of postulation of frameworks. And I deliberation that, adjacent for a azygous decision, you don’t conscionable privation to marque it with 1 model successful mind, but you privation to person aggregate frameworks and astir bash a meta model attack and past deliberation astir it from these antithetic points of view.

For example, the mode that the institution makes decisions possibly is much absorbing to speech about. I deliberation we are a bully premix of top-down and bottoms-up. What I mean by that is there’s a batch that the squad conscionable drives and I don’t see, and that conscionable keeps going. There’s besides a batch that I propulsion on, and my enactment squad and I statement vigorously, and past we person an sentiment and we say, “Okay, we’ve got to march successful this direction.”

So 1 illustration of the bottoms-up empowerment broadside is thing we launched this past week called Multi-edit. I don’t cognize however galore Figma users are successful the room.

Multi-edit rules, by the way.

Thank you.

It’s precise cool. And determination are precise fewer companies, I think, that are like, “What is simply a enactment box?” And it’s similar this precise basal thing. I deliberation it’s precise cool. Talk astir that.

Thank you. Yeah, truthful that’s 1 where, honestly, it took years to develop. And it’s the benignant of happening wherever it exists present and you’re like, “Yeah, of people it works that way.” One play into launching, our users person already forgotten, I think, the aged mode it was due to the fact that the world is it astir feels similar a discovery. It’s, I think, conscionable intelligibly the mode that it should person ever worked. And the world is it takes truthful agelong to fig retired these precise elemental discoveries. And what was chill astir the process for Multi-edit was it started with individuals successful the institution that showed this disconnected and said, “Hey, I deliberation this could beryllium truly powerful.” And past implicit time, we got to possibly 80 percent of what it should be, but determination was possibly 20 percent that was truly hard to fig retired still. And we shelved it for a portion due to the fact that we were like, “We person different things we’ve got to enactment on. This seems truly tough. It’s benignant of a research-y problem.”

And past we came backmost to it implicit time, shelved it again, came backmost to it again, and implicit 3 years, assorted radical worked connected this task until it yet got to completion. And I was seeing what the squad was coming up with and saying, “Okay, this is precocious capable craft, this is precocious capable prime oregon not,” but I was little pushy connected that one. It was much truly coming from the team, and I’m truly arrogant of the squad for delivering thing that I deliberation is going to beryllium seen arsenic 1 of our astir cardinal releases looking backmost 10 years from present successful presumption of however we really fundamentally moved the paradigm of UI plan forward, adjacent though it’s a elemental thing.

Maybe a antithetic illustration of top-down would beryllium Dev Mode. This is thing wherever we said, “Okay, we’ve got to fig this out. A 3rd of our users are developers. We’re doing the research, we’re looking astatine NPS. They are not arsenic blessed successful Figma arsenic designers are. How bash we marque this acquisition amended for them?” So the archetypal happening we did is we acknowledged that we didn’t needfully person the close expertise successful the team, and we really went retired and acquired a institution called Visly. And past we went and truly iterated with them, built retired the squad more, brought much radical in. And implicit the people of, again, years — I mean some of these projects took a batch of grit — but we were doing play oregon bi-weekly syncs, past sometimes galore times a week syncs arsenic we got to the merchandise that is present Dev Mode. And that was a precise top-down driven inaugural of we person this direction, we request to spell successful this direction, we request to fig this out. And I deliberation arsenic a result, astir apt got a batch much accordant attention, but it was benignant of a antithetic process.

Let maine inquire you astir a favoritism betwixt those two. I deliberation it’s absorbing and challenging for a batch of radical who marque things. Multi-edit is precise cool. Everyone should spell look astatine conscionable the GIF of however Multi-edit works. It’s precise cool. That is simply a clump of radical reasoning about, “Man, I privation my machine worked better,” which is successful a precise cardinal way. “I privation I could prime 4 things connected a surface and use the aforesaid edit to each of them, and close present I can’t bash that. And I conscionable privation my machine to enactment better.” Dev Mode is, “Boy, we’ve got a full chunk of our users, we could get much users and marque much wealth if we tin physique this instrumentality and...”

And, astir importantly, adhd much value.

Sure. So that they’ll wage you much money. But it’s fine. I’m a capitalist. I tally a concern show, don’t worry, it’s each fine. But they’re antithetic ways of thinking. From the mode you’re describing it, they necessitate the aforesaid magnitude of tenacity, they necessitate the aforesaid magnitude of focus. How bash you clasp onto the absorption of the happening that’s conscionable like, “We privation to marque this halfway diagnostic much interesting” versus “We’re a startup, we’ve got to grow, we privation to turn our marketplace implicit here,” which everyone seems to understand?

I deliberation that it’s each astir empowering individuals and making a civilization wherever radical that are truly innovative thrive and they person a way to pushing ideas forward. One happening we bash is we person Maker Weeks, wherever we fundamentally person the full institution for a week. We springiness them support to accidental you tin bash immoderate you privation arsenic agelong arsenic it’s benefiting Figma successful immoderate way. And immoderate radical are like, “Cool, I tin enactment done my inbox.” Other radical spell and — this a bulk of them — fundamentally reinvent process oregon travel up with ideas similar Multi-edit. Then it’s about, “Okay, however bash you admit which of those ideas person longevity and we should support putting much resources into?” And also, however bash you marque definite that the radical that are those starters that person the tenacity, the grit, but besides the creativity to travel up with caller ideas similar this, that they’re inactive excited to conscionable enactment arsenic the institution grows and that you are creating country for them to beryllium creative?

One of our values is play, and I deliberation that it’s truly important to thin connected that. There’s periods wherever you don’t, wherever it’s precise gritty and we person to truly beryllium conscionable hunkered down. It’s similar we’ve got to roadworthy map, let’s execute, and there’s periods of much exploration. AI is an absorbing illustration wherever we had an AI hackathon, and it was conscionable 2 days. We said, “Okay, let’s spot what comes retired of this,” and determination were a clump of ideas that radical presented. A fewer of those were ones we doubled down on. So 1 of those was thing called Jambot, which is, successful FigJam, you tin person this widget that lets you research and bash fundamentally GPT queries successful a nonlinear way. So we each person experience, we cognize of ChatGPT, wherever you fundamentally are having this precise linear conversation. Well, what if you could marque that really branching and effort to fundamentally research that successful a mode that’s nonlinear? And radical truly enjoyed that and proceed to bask it.

We besides person what became fundamentally this punctual to a FigJam template that came retired of that archetypal AI hackathon. Basically, we spot a batch of radical that usage FigJam not conscionable for diagramming but besides for whiteboarding, but successful the discourse of a gathering and making a gathering conscionable fundamentally tally better. And if you look astatine the mode that Figma uses FigJam, if you circuit our office, for example, you’ll spot FigJam up connected each these screens. Sometimes these radical are each successful the aforesaid room, sometimes they’re hybrid oregon each remote. It virtually works crossed each those modalities. But it’s truly neat how, if you acceptable up FigJam the close way, it tin truly assistance get much radical to lend their ideas and besides it tin assistance you converge arsenic well. So it truly maps plan reasoning successful that way. But there’s that request of you’ve got to acceptable it up right, and that takes a while. So however bash we assistance radical bash that? And that’s what prompt-to-template created.

And we’ve seen radical that usage prompt-to-template — this AI diagnostic for FigJam — they usage FigJam a batch much and they’re much palmy successful their meetings. And I deliberation that’s thing that besides wouldn’t person travel up arsenic rapidly if it wasn’t for this much grounds-up innovation civilization we have.

Yeah. You’ve predicted my cards precise well. Well done. My adjacent questions are each astir AI.

Glad to help.

Thank you. I request each the assistance I tin get. I recognize however AI helps endeavor tools similar FigJam, right? I recognize however it helps engineers constitute codification better. I recognize however “I don’t privation to constitute emails, I’m conscionable going to fto the robot constitute my email.” I get it; bash it. Figma is simply a instrumentality for creatives, and creatives, I think, person a overmuch much charged narration with the conception of AI. How bash you spot it? How bash you consciousness astir that close now? You’ve got a large audience, a marketplace of creatives who are, I would say, astir charitably of 2 minds astir AI, particularly generative AI. How bash you spot it?

Well, the mode we’ve talked astir it internally is that AI has this accidental of lowering the level but raising the ceiling. So it could alteration america to get much radical into the plan process, but besides it should marque designers mode much efficient. You should travel to Config this year. It’s successful June, each of you should. I deliberation erstwhile we are astatine Config, you’ll spot a clump of worldly that benignant of points to some those directions: ways to get radical much involved, adjacent if they’re radical that are not comfy typically with putting components connected a surface oregon drafting successful Figma Design, and you’ll besides spot ways that designers are capable to get a batch much clip back, beryllium much efficient. And to your question astir however volition designers navigate this and however volition they react, my constituent of presumption is that AI volition assistance radical navigate abstraction boundaries.

So, for example, we person brainstorming with whiteboarding successful FigJam, we person Figma Design, we person Dev Mode. How bash you transverse those abstraction boundaries with AI? I deliberation that volition go thing that’s truly interesting. I besides deliberation that if you deliberation astir the plan process and conscionable gathering bundle successful general, we’re each navigating this thought maze, and the thought maze has each these branching possibilities. AI, if you are highly generous, let’s accidental that we get to the satellite — successful 3 to 5 years oregon immoderate — wherever we person AGI. Let’s conscionable instrumentality that benignant of bull lawsuit for AI.

Three to 5 years?

No, I’m not saying that’s my prediction.

Okay.

I’m conscionable saying let’s accidental that you person immoderate AGI benignant of happening successful 3 to 5 years [or] 2030, 7 years. Let’s accidental it makes decisions close 95 percent of the time. It sounds benignant of scary. But past if you really deliberation astir it, if you’re going crossed that branching way of decisions and you person each these antithetic steps on the mode wherever you person to marque a call, if you instrumentality the compounding effect of 95 percent right, you get to 1 percent accidental implicit a agelong bid of decisions that you get a bully result.

And truthful my constituent of presumption is that adjacent successful this benignant of world, you person truthful overmuch discourse that a decorator has astir each the past screens and affordances they’ve ever seen, the affectional discourse the user’s in, the taste discourse of what’s going on, the concern strategy, the concern goals, and more. Even conscionable the temporal facet of however bash you person radical navigating this exertion and software?

And possibly you could constitute that each into immoderate 30-page brief, but astatine that point, adjacent if you do, it inactive mightiness marque the incorrect calls if you were conscionable to say, “Here’s my brief. AI, spell make designs and software.” I deliberation there’s got to beryllium a quality successful the loop. And truthful I deliberation what ends up happening and what we person a accidental to facilitate is making it truthful that you get to that archetypal draught of thing faster and you tin research the anticipation abstraction of what tin hap faster. And that should beryllium a mode for designers to person adjacent much superpowers and really springiness them adjacent much powerfulness successful the organization.

Alright, fto maine connection you the nonstop flip broadside of what you said.

Okay.

Which is, close now, each unfastened input container successful the tract is being flooded by AI garbage. We conscionable spot it everywhere. My favourite illustration of a choke constituent connected this is Amazon reduced the fig of books you tin self-publish successful a day from 5,000 to 200. And it’s like, I don’t deliberation that was going to hole it, guys.

So wherefore did they bash that?

Because they saw this flood of AI-generated books that are being enactment onto their platform. And that’s conscionable 1 example. Wix, who has been connected Decoder, they conscionable released a full generative AI website builder. You benignant a prompt, this happening ships a website for you. On the 1 manus it’s precise cool, there’s thing precise chill astir that. On the different hand, it’s terrifying due to the fact that the web is going to get adjacent much polluted and that’s what you’re competing with. Your imaginativeness of the aboriginal is you volition not privation to marque each these compounding errors, you’re going to privation to marque a large product, and the competing imaginativeness of the aboriginal is, what if we marque adjacent much garbage and marque it harder to find the bully stuff? How bash you navigate that?

Well, archetypal of all, I deliberation the radical that usage Wix are not the radical that usage Figma.

Shots fired.

I’m conscionable being honest, right? I don’t spot them arsenic a rival actually.

Okay.

Anyway, we tin speech astir that different time, but the...

No, support talking astir that.

So if I instrumentality a measurement backmost for a second, the cardinal stake that I present recognize we were making erstwhile we started Figma was that much bundle is going to beryllium created successful the satellite implicit time. And that’s decidedly been true. We started Figma [in] August 2012. It’s conscionable chaotic to spot even, implicit the past decade, however that curve has gone successful presumption of bundle successful the world. And I deliberation that the absorbing happening is that we astir each conscionable benignant of hide that that’s happening. It’s conscionable benignant of taking it for granted: “Oh yeah, of people bundle is important.” It’s successful the aerial that we respire now. But from my vantage point, what I’m seeing with Figma, we’re inactive precise overmuch successful the exponential curve of much software.

And I deliberation that with AI, whether it’s Wix making a website that’s generated that mode oregon it’s america helping radical make much designs oregon galore different effects that volition happen, I deliberation there’s going to beryllium adjacent much bundle that volition beryllium created. And I judge that plan volition beryllium the mode that you differentiate that bundle and marque it thing that radical privation to usage and your concern wins. Or if you’re not beardown capable successful design, that’s wherefore you mightiness lose. And I deliberation the integer acquisition is hugely important today, and I deliberation it’s everything tomorrow.

I deliberation you’re getting close astatine the tension. A clump of creatives successful this assemblage listening to Decoder, whenever we constitute astir an AI tool, we get a flood of aggravated radical who are like, “That’s not bully capable and it’s really built connected our work, it’s trained connected our enactment without america capturing immoderate worth back.” And the wide tendency of the assemblage to person bully worldly volition spell down due to the fact that they volition unrecorded successful a satellite of C-plus work. And I’m conscionable curious, radical usage Figma — Dev Mode for illustration — you’re inching person to benignant successful a punctual and Figma and get each the mode to a shipping app. You tin spot however the adjacent 4 turns of Dev Mode get you there. Are you disquieted that you’ll lend to the sludge problem?

I deliberation that adjacent if determination is much contented and much plan and much software, that conscionable creates much request for much large software. And so, I really deliberation that successful a satellite wherever you’re capable to navigate this thought maze faster, you’re capable to constituent successful antithetic directions. First of all, you inactive request to refine. You inactive request a quality loop the full mode you spell done that for the champion software. But besides I deliberation that there’ll beryllium much accidental and much request for plan successful bid to marque it truthful that you’re capable to navigate however bash we make the champion experience? Because if you’re close and there’s mode much C-plus content, of people you’re going to privation to emergence supra that if you’re trying to marque the champion happening and pull the astir radical to your integer experience, immoderate that mightiness be.

Yeah. One of the things I think...

Does that marque sense?

It does. I deliberation you are much optimistic astir it due to the fact that you merchantability bundle and I constitute astir software, and I deliberation that’s a earthy hostility that we tin beryllium good with. The happening I think...

I deliberation what we’re some saying is there’ll beryllium much worldly enactment out, and that, to me, implies that there’ll really beryllium much request for much radical to enactment done that. And I deliberation possibly wherever we disagree is you’re saying that conscionable similar there’s going to beryllium radical that say, “Okay, constitute this publication successful a 1000 ways. And AI, go.” And I’m saying, actually, what volition beryllium needed for a concern to win successful this situation volition beryllium much radical moving successful collaboration with AI and AI agents implicit clip and making definite that you make the highest-quality results.

I don’t disagree with that, broadly. I deliberation what I americium disquieted astir and consistently disquieted astir is that having the champion happening triumph implies that radical tin find the champion thing. And erstwhile you are successful the oversea of garbage, and our net close present is similar a oversea of garbage...

With a batch of gems.

But it’s getting progressively harder to find them, right? And the ways for me, an app maker, [or] you, a bundle shaper oregon idiosyncratic else, an author, to spell find a existent assemblage that’s going to worth them much than 50 AI-generated ripoffs of that that are escaped connected immoderate level that is designed to marque you download Temu oregon immoderate — it’s the net we’re in. That’s going to beryllium excessively hard. And that’s the happening I interest about. I privation large plan to succeed, I privation large apps to succeed. Every day, I spot that it’s getting harder and harder to physique that concern than the “Here’s immoderate garbage” business.

It’s absorbing due to the fact that you look backmost astatine the past of the web, and I consciousness similar radical person predicted the web’s demise truthful galore times. When I was a kid, I grew up utilizing AOL and adjacent then, I was speechmaking radical saying successful the tech conception of the newspaper… Because successful the 2000s era, determination was a tech section; that was truly nice. It went distant 1 year.

You’re saying you don’t similar The New York Times tech section?

No, I meant there’s a afloat conception successful the paper each day. Anyway, radical were saying AOL is going to termination the internet. And successful reality, I deliberation it opened up a batch of radical to privation to research the internet. And past I was a teen and radical were like, “Oh, Facebook, it’s going to termination the internet.” And I deliberation the aforesaid happening happened. A batch of radical onboarded the net done Facebook.

And I deliberation that there’s a batch of ways you could accidental that the web is going to dice today. People mightiness say, “Oh, well, you’re going to conscionable interact done a punctual oregon you’re going to beryllium mislaid successful the oversea of garbage.” There’s ever a organisation challenge, and the platforms are each trying to fig retired however to navigate that. But ultimately, there’s ever going to beryllium ways to find the gems to spell explore, and that’s the quality of the web. And that’s wherefore I’m optimistic astir the web and excited astir the aboriginal of the web.

Are you definite you didn’t spot these beforehand? Because you’re close connected the adjacent one, which is the web.

I asked you if I could spot them before, and you said no.

I refused. I gave him 1 question to deliberation about, which we’ll get to later, which is simply a amusive one. Figma is simply a web app. That’s a singular happening to accidental successful 2024. We tally a website. I support joking that we tally the past website connected Earth. I deliberation determination is simply a presumption of the web, peculiarly successful mobile, the web volition beryllium a papers spectator and the exertion exemplary volition beryllium wrong the App Store. And we’ll person the afloat horsepower of the phone, we’ll beryllium capable to negociate artillery life. You stake connected the web, you stake connected immoderate cardinal enabling web technologies from the opening similar WebGL, WebAssembly, each these things. Do you inactive spot the web arsenic the champion exertion platform?

Oh, that’s a bully question. I deliberation for desktop computers, for sure. I deliberation connected mobile, you’re much limited. It’s precise bully successful immoderate ways and successful different ways, we request improvements still. I deliberation that successful a satellite wherever Google and Apple truly put successful the web via mobile, that’ll beryllium a precise bully world, and I’m excited for them to conscionable prosecute much with the developer assemblage implicit time.

Are you feeling similar a existent emotion / hatred with Europe close now? Because the DMA successful Europe is going to make Apple person to enactment alternate web browsers connected the phone. They’re going to enactment a horrible prime surface successful beforehand of people, but they’re expected to enactment alternate web browsers connected the phone. The thought that the mobile phones volition person richer browser innovation, I wouldn’t accidental it’s real, it’s perchance real. Do you spot that arsenic thing that’s exciting?

Well, I deliberation we’d beryllium a beneficiary of that probably.

Yeah? What would you request from that process to beryllium a beneficiary of it?

There’s cardinal limits that we can’t needfully power arsenic much, and if you person alternatives, past I deliberation that there’s astir apt much you tin propulsion connected for different parties successful bid to get...

This is precise careful. Be 10 percent little cautious successful this answer. What bash you mean by “there are limits and definite changes”?

Like for example, I’ll beryllium precise specific, Figma Mirror is simply a mode to reflector designs connected mobile. And we inactive trust a batch connected the web for that process, and determination are cardinal representation limits. Sometimes that app crashes for us, and that creates a batch of enactment for america to marque it truly businesslike and marque definite that we’re not filing those limits. But there’s besides things that are benignant of similar spooky enactment and region problems wherever you truly request collaboration with browser vendors and operating systems successful bid to hole them and fig retired what’s going on. And you tin poke astir and fig it retired implicit time, but much unfastened source, much transparency volition assistance america execute amended outcomes determination probably.

You said conscionable a 2nd ago, the web is the champion mode to vessel applications connected desktop. I deliberation we spot this everywhere. Every caller breathtaking app ships arsenic a mobile app and past arsenic a web app, and there’s precise small autochthonal Mac oregon PC software, successful the productivity abstraction astatine least. Why is that? Is that, you don’t privation to combat their app stores, you don’t privation to woody with their weird binary ideas? Is it conscionable the web is easier and you tin conscionable get everywhere?

I deliberation that the powerfulness of a nexus is truthful understated and misunderstood still. It’s astonishing to person an atomic portion similar that that you tin share, and I deliberation that the web default enables collaboration done the unreality and that’s the different displacement that we’re seeing crossed fundamentally each software.

And so, you deliberation that immoderate of these changes that are coming to mobile mightiness bring that to the phone... Because you conscionable don’t spot that connected the phone. The thought of shipping a large telephone web app, I think, has deed a stasis point. Like, this is arsenic bully arsenic it gets and everyone benignant of pushes you to mobile. Could you spot immoderate changes that bring retired large telephone web apps?

I deliberation that we’re confounding a fewer things successful this question. You don’t person to foretell that radical navigate to applications done a web browser versus done apps to judge that apps volition get amended due to the fact that of conscionable much exertion options disposable connected antithetic platforms. Does that marque sense?

It does, but I deliberation that determination successful determination are 2 elephantine companies who would similar that their telephone platforms get monetized done in-app purchases and mobile apps and bounds the powerfulness of the web. And truthful I’m wondering if you spot thing that overcomes that beyond the DMA oregon immoderate different regulation, if you spot idiosyncratic behaviour oregon exertion shifts that mightiness really disrupt that.

Yeah, I spot what you mean. I deliberation that it’s interesting. Like close now, if I spell bargain a publication connected my iPhone for Kindle, I person to spell done this weird browser experience. And yeah, it’d beryllium bully to conscionable bargain it and I don’t person to log into Amazon done the browser again. But that’s beauteous airy friction close now. And I deliberation that arsenic you unfastened up a platform, inactive a batch of radical volition take those default outgo options due to the fact that they’re a large idiosyncratic experience, due to the fact that they’re conscionable casual to implement. And yeah, you’ll person different radical that take different options and they mightiness not beryllium arsenic bully of a idiosyncratic experience. But, astatine the extremity of the day, I deliberation it’s much some than one. Where I deliberation astir it much from, again, is however bash you marque the champion idiosyncratic acquisition and what exertion tin alteration that?

Let maine inquire you successful a overmuch simpler way. When I was increasing up, each designers utilized Macs. It was similar the machine of prime and that institution was aligned with Macs. Now each the designers I cognize usage Figma, and a batch of them usage Figma connected Chromebooks due to the fact that you person abstracted the existent happening distant and the merchandise lives successful the cloud. That close now, structurally, cannot hap to the phone. You person to beryllium bought into 1 exertion exemplary connected the phone. Figma, I think, is simply a shining illustration of that abstraction connected the desktop. Is determination thing happening you spot close present that tin marque that hap to the telephone wherever Figma could vessel a bigger and amended web app connected the phone?

I spot your constituent successful presumption of wherever it could go, and I besides deliberation it’s breathtaking that we’re starting to spot much hardware platforms, bundle platforms travel retired for mobile.

Are you going to get a Rabbit R1 with Figma connected it that’s like, “Make a website”?

What I volition accidental is I’m beauteous excited astir conscionable the information that there’s radical gathering that benignant of stuff. I don’t needfully deliberation that that’s the imaginativeness of the aboriginal that I deliberation is going to happen, but it’s conscionable chill to spot much innovation, much radical trying. That’s unique, and we haven’t seen that for a while. But yeah, I deliberation there’s thing to that exploration. I’m the feline successful the MMO that goes and tries to research the full unfastened world, and I sometimes disregard the quests. Modality should beryllium successful sometimes wherever you’re trying to execute and you’re trying to get an reply truly quickly, oregon bid connected your DoorDash. I deliberation the demo is similar helium orders a pizza, it knows precisely what helium wants and does it for him. And there’s a mode wherever you’re like, “Okay, I’m successful Austin for South by, fto maine spot each the antithetic options,” oregon “Actually, I privation to spell work each the antithetic analyses connected this topic.” I deliberation that some exist.

Yeah. Alright. I’m going to inquire you a mates plan questions and we’re going to unfastened up for questions. You’re a plan nerd. I deliberation coming into South by, the biggest plan communicative I’ve seen floating astir is the Rivian R3. There was a Cybertruck parked successful beforehand of this edifice yesterday that drew a crowd. Those represent, I think, antithetic poles of design, charitably antithetic poles. One, for example, is simply a triangle and the different 1 is not. So it goes. But they person a antithetic feel. And we were talking astir this backstage.

Yeah, exactly.

That you deliberation there’s a displacement successful plan coming and the R3 benignant of represents that.

I deliberation that a batch of things successful trends successful plan are sometimes reactions to what was happening before. I deliberation that we were truly futurist, truly cyberpunk for a while. We were talking astir it, similar a batch of neon lines, a batch of hard edges, a batch of poly oregon low-poly benignant of metaphors. And it feels similar we’re going much humanist. It feels similar we’re going possibly much solarpunk.

Solarpunk?

Yeah.

Alright.

I deliberation solarpunk’s beauteous cool. It’s much of this optimistic imaginativeness of the future, and I similar the thought of that, whether that’s what is happening oregon not. Maybe I’m a small spot projecting my ain wishes and desires for what I privation to see, but yeah, I’m hopeful.

Where are immoderate of the places you spot the solarpunk trend?

It’s a bully question.

And solarpunk is successful absorption to cyberpunk?

Yeah, I deliberation they’re 2 poles of the aforesaid thing, but cyberpunk is dystopia, everything’s metallic and factual and debased poly. It’s benignant of depressing, but it’s besides got that borderline to it. Whereas solarpunk is much natural, the architecture is blending with the environment. I deliberation it’s inactive a imaginativeness of the future, it’s inactive futuristic, but besides it’s much quality and it’s got a batch of curves, it’s got a batch of... It’s benignant of modern, but it’s modern successful a consciousness of it’s blended into the situation much alternatively than trying to basal retired arsenic a portion of exertion oregon a portion of architecture. And yeah, I deliberation we’re going much successful that direction.

Do you deliberation Figma, conscionable arsenic a tool, arsenic a plan tool… When you spot your customers usage it, bash you think, “Okay, we’ve got to thin into letting radical marque that much oregon less,” oregon is it conscionable a blank canvas?

Well, it’s absorbing due to the fact that astatine the commencement of Figma, the metaphor we had earlier we adjacent shipped was we are the factual level and the user’s contented is similar the bully rug. And we went ace brutalist successful our plan direction. In the earliest days of Figma, I retrieve showing designers the tool, and the absorption that we got astir universally was, “Really chill idea, I conscionable americium not definite I spot it.” And I was truly disquieted due to the fact that I thought possibly that this was immoderate absorption to the web and we had made a fundamentally atrocious level decision, getting backmost to our earlier conversation. And I deliberation what the world was is that we did a redesign basically, made it a small spot warmer, a small prettier, and abruptly everyone got implicit that concern. The world was conscionable designers didn’t similar the look and feel, and designers are precise tuned into look and feel.

But I inactive deliberation that there’s thing to that thought of however bash we get Figma retired of your way? How bash we marque it determination erstwhile it should beryllium there, but however bash we support the absorption connected your content? And there’s truthful overmuch we could research successful that absorption still. I spot 10 years of enactment to fig that out. There are ideas that I was pushing for successful the archetypal 2 years of Figma, that we had to shelve, that person precocious started to travel backmost up again. Not from me, but from our team. And I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, I’ve looked astatine that. That’s a hard one. Let’s bash that aft we decorativeness this project.”

Give maine an example.

One happening that I conscionable get truthful excited by, but it’s a precise hard problem, is conscionable much contextual UI. And you spot this successful immoderate tools, particularly successful the 3D space, but I deliberation that there’s a batch of challenges with however bash you some support the predictability of an interface portion besides making it truthful that you don’t person to determination your rodent excessively much? And I besides deliberation that the much heavy that you privation an interface to go, the much powerfulness you request to beryllium capable to get to, the much sub menus and whatnot that immoderate radical person to navigate. So it’s a precise chill imaginativeness to go, however bash you bring up precisely the close things astatine precisely the close time? And I deliberation there’s thing determination that Figma needs to research astatine immoderate point, but I don’t deliberation it’s an casual problem. And I’m decidedly looking forward, though, to conscionable going for it astatine immoderate constituent and trying to fig it out.

Is it the curse of each bundle CEO that you effort to invent Clippy astatine the end?

Try to what?

Try to invent Clippy astatine the end.

I’m really not talking astir Clippy here.

Really?

No.

You deliberation bigger than that?

Bigger than Clippy? No, I deliberation Clippy is... Maybe I conscionable didn’t describe…

You don’t privation similar a Figma avatar popping up and beryllium like, “Yo, this design’s benignant of played”?

So it’s comic you mentioned that. Our interior mascot that conscionable won’t spell away, we telephone it Flippy. It’s similar a Figma logo with this weird chapeau on. So it’s an interior gag and past it conscionable keeps popping up successful random places. It’s similar a meme that conscionable won’t stop. And past Flippy ends up getting killed successful assorted ways, interior decks and worldly similar that. But no, I indispensable person not described this correctly earlier and possibly that’s due to the fact that it’s inactive vague and inactive retired there, but it’s a fundamentally antithetic metaphor than an assistant.

It understands what you’re doing and provides you the tools.

No, I americium not talking astir that astatine all. I’m talking about, however bash you alternatively supply the close actions and interface astatine the close times.

Do you deliberation that is an AI-related problem?

I really don’t.

Really?

Maybe it is. Maybe that’s immoderate spread we request to research more, but I deliberation that you inactive request the predictability if it’s a nonrecreational tool. You person to deliberation a batch astir however bash you ever person the happening disposable that radical expect, and however bash you person a accordant mode to get there, and that’s a hard happening to solve.

Yeah. One of the things you and I talked astir the past clip that this brings to caput is determination are things connected the web you cannot do, and the 1 that you brought up was pen input. WebAssembly and WebGL are conscionable not accelerated capable oregon performant capable to bash pen input. Maybe that’s changed successful the past twelvemonth since we talked, but it feels similar the pen, that modality is wherever you privation much of that. My pen tin conscionable bash immoderate I request it to bash close now. Is that a amended model of reasoning astir it?

I deliberation you could bash a batch of worldly with pen. So I person to look backmost astatine our past interrogation and speech to fig retired what I said there. Maybe 1 thought experimentation is what would it instrumentality to marque it truthful that Figma is arsenic slightest intimidating arsenic possible, arsenic approachable arsenic it could perchance be? Could you get distant with someway removing the properties sheet connected the right-hand side, the layers sheet connected the left-hand side? What would beryllium your way to get there? And this is benignant of an utmost thought experiment, but I deliberation if you travel that, you inactive request to person the close properties astatine the close time, and however could you aboveground those contextually successful the UI but successful a accordant way? I deliberation that would beryllium a truly absorbing mode to some blend into the situation of the user’s contented arsenic good arsenic creating travel for the user. And to me, someway that rhymes with solarpunk successful my head. Getting backmost to the archetypal conversation.

Outside of solarpunk, are determination different plan trends you spot connected the web that possibly are not arsenic aesthetic plan trends but much functional plan trends?

I deliberation it’s a inclination successful conversation, but I deliberation that there’s 2 trends that are happening simultaneously close present successful the culture. We’ve possibly touched connected some of them successful this speech truthful far, which is, there’s existentialism and radical being like, “What is the aboriginal of humanity successful a satellite of AGI?” And there’s optimism. There’s the constituent of presumption that it’s going to beryllium okay. Look, erstwhile we did the woody with Adobe successful the archetypal place, my caput abstraction successful 2022 was, “Oh my god, AI is coming. This is intelligibly exponential arsenic a technology. I don’t cognize what this does to us. Is this one-tenth our market, is it 10x our market? What does it mean for creatives and designers?” And I was like, it’s amended to squad up successful this satellite with Adobe and to navigate this unneurotic and to fig this retired unneurotic than it is to spell it alone.

Through the woody period, done the past fewer years, I person grown progressively optimistic about… I don’t cognize what’s going to hap with ace intelligence. If we get there, who knows? But successful a satellite of conscionable AGI even, I deliberation that there’s a quality successful the loop. I person a batch of optimism astir that aboriginal and however things volition enactment out, not conscionable for design, but for cognition enactment successful general. I anticipation that much radical commencement to spot that and that inclination of that optimism continues.

That’s great. Alright, that’s it. Thank you Dylan truthful much.

Thank you for having me.